RIP Dr. Luis Palau, the "Billy Graham of Latin America"

We note the passing of Dr. Luis Palau this past week.  We had an opportunity to spend an afternoon with the “Billy Graham of Latin America,” at Winnetka Bible Church, arranged by pastor Dr. David Gotaas, circa 1982.  (Both Dr. Gotaas, and his son Dave, who became a great friend, are gone now, experiencing directly what the following words are all about.)  Catalyst for our meeting:  I was gathering material for a book on heaven, After Armageddon, and thought it would be interesting to include comments from evangelical notables.

Here is a transcript of our session.

Interview with Luis Palau, Evangelist, Director, Luis Palau Evangelical Association, Portland, Oregon.

Q. What are your views on heaven . . . on the afterlife?

A. I like to preach on heaven and I find that people are absolutely intrigued. I am a great believer in heaven, (I suppose every Christian is) but lately I've come to realize many people consider it way out. It's amazing.   C. S. Lewis made a statement which I quote often (although it's probably more of a paraphrase), 'No man is ready to live life down here until he has settled it, and is ready to live life up there.' I happen to believe in it deeply, and that is why I quote it. If you've settled the big one, which is, 'Where will you spend eternity? Is heaven your home and are you sure of it?' the other problems are relatively minor. I mean, they are little things. In fifty, sixty years, it's all over. But heaven, if you settle that question, it's long-range planning. If you have a long-range plan, the short ones fall into place, but if you don't have the long-range plan, you are just stumbling along.

I like to think of John, chapter 14 and Revelation chapters 21 and 22. To me, heaven cannot be described beautifully enough, cannot be played up enough in my mind. It is probably even better than the Garden of Eden ever could have been. It's the Father's house, it's the many mansions. There will be no death, no tears, no crime, no illness in other words, the paradise that humans dream of That's what heaven will be, in my opinion. I think it's the most intelligent place in the world. People worry, "Will I know other people?" I know it's a genuine concern, but . . . the answer to that is, if I am intelligent enough with all my imperfections to recognize you now, why wouldn't I be able to recognize you when we are super-perfect and our IQ is . . . whatever is the highest.

To me, heaven is as real a place as Los Angeles or New York, only more so. The Bible always pictures it as going up - so why. not? The point is, if that is the picture the Lord wanted to give to us, let's stay with the picture the Lord wanted to give. My feeling is that the Bible describes heaven enough that we can know that it is a lovely place, that we want to go there, that it is fantastic, that there is no better place, that it's the Father's house, that it is our eternal home. To me everything about it is beautiful. Christians should not be afraid of it. I think it was C. S. Lewis who also said, 'Christians are not afraid of death, but it's the process of dying that sometimes gets a little messy.' You know, that is the truth. Dying for the Christian is not a fearful thing. Not if you are certain, if you are a well-taught Christian, because you know you will go to heaven. The process of dying gets a little messy, and I appreciate that.

 

Q. That's very good. Do you foresee Christ returning to the earth in the start of the millennium?

A. I believe in the millennium. I happen to feel that it is there, it is pretty clear, and the question is, why not? I can see the purpose of the Lord trying to show what it could have been, had we allowed him to be King of creation. And I think it doesn't contradict anything I see in Scripture. It enhances a lot of things to me to show what the earth could have been like, had we not all become rebels and sinners.

But the thought often is . . . Hebrew says anything that is old is getting worn out and is about to pass away. Well, if it became old and worn out, and passed away, why are we going to ressurect it? It seems so awkward to go around killing bulls again when we got the real Lamb of God who died and rose again. But honestly, I would not want to make a statement on it. My feelings just don't seem to jive with the overall passages - but if you ask me "What does Ezekiel mean?" I wouldn't know what to tell you. I am not an expert. on Ezekiel. In fact the other day, to my great embarrassment, I was checking my Bible reading, over the last eight years and I realized how little I read Ezekiel. I keep tabs on what I read. It is a heavy book. I enjoy the one point that I always remember Ezekiel 10 that 'They finally shall know that I am. the Lord." I mean it says that hundreds of times and the whole point obviously is you've got to know the Lord, but the prophetic details honestly throw me. I'm not an expert.

What do I see myself doing in the day in this afterlife that we call heaven? I've thought about it -- to be honest, I don't see why you shouldn't have a great time, myself, you know, it's my little theory don't take me too seriously. . .. I do it a bit tongue-in-cheek. But, work per se, having to earn your keep by the sweat of your brow was a curse.

Yes, in my mind I still see it as a curse - having to 'kill' yourself to make a living. I see heaven as a place where we'll be able to eat, drink and be merry, in the clean way. Without having to say, I must get up to shave. You know, that kind of an attitude. I see it as the South Pacific islands only without sin. In my mind, it's going to be just fantastic, talk to my friends, talk to the Lord, ask the questions I've always wanted to ask, worship the Lord, the picture I get out of Revelation basically, you know because in John, Corinthians, Thessalonians, it's basically the advance of the fact. In Revelation, the picture to me is one of beauty and peace and a river flowing and trees growing and I can see myself just sitting, you know, talking to my friends...

 

Q. Sitting under your fig tree.

A. Yes, exactly, sitting under my fig tree. And people say, 'you're going to "serve the Lord." Well, fine, if he asks me to do anything, I'll be glad to do it. But I don't see it as a job-that-must--get-done. I am not obsessed by that. I have a desire to have an endless country club, so to speak. Why shouldn't it be just plain joyful fun? Some people get upset when I say this. Even though I may be half jesting . . .

I think it is the Puritan ethic. Yes, it's a very American thing. You see, I'm from a Latin background, I'm not all that upset. But you know, I'm all for work, and I probably work harder than many people in this world, I'm sure. I feel work is necessary in this fallen world or else we would corrupt ourselves beyond imagination if we had nothing to do. But that's part of the chastisement.

So I can see myself worshipping the Lord, talking to the Lord. One thing I'd like to do, by the way, is to see videotapes of many events in history. And my thinking is that if we can invent a videotape and, we can see John Kennedy on tape, surely in heaven they've got a system that we can look back and see history.

I'd like to go back, for instance, and see the connection between world events and history. I know that God is the ruler of history and I feel that God dominates history and I'd like to see how he guided things, in his own sovereign ways. How the rise of Calvin and Luther was related to the Crusades and the Roman Church.

How God puts history together intrigues me. For instance, allowing Joseph to be sold as a slave, because he saw ahead of time that he had to bring the people out of Egypt back to the Holy Land. How did God manage it? I've never questioned it at all. And Pm intrigued to see how he, without manipulating human freedom, how he nevertheless managed to so package it that humans did their thing, but at the same time God was doing his. To me that's intriguing about history and human events. Those are some of the many questions that I have.

 

Q. We could spend a great deal of time, Dr. Palau, watching documentary films.

A. Yes, I want to. I'm sure we can watch video tapes. If we can invent them, he's got better machines. You know?

To me heaven is a real concept. It's a place, because the Bible paints it as a place Some of my friends who have imaginative minds say heaven is like a fourth dimension. And that's fine, if that's the way you want to put it. In other words, one of my friends, (he's not a wild person either, he's a good one), he says, "I feel that heaven is all around us." He says, "It's like another dimension. Once you die, you're in it, and there it is, and heaven is around us and people are seeing us and watching us and hearing us."

I said, "Well that could be, but my picture of heaven is according to the Lord: the Lord "ascended" into heaven. Why don't we keep the Biblical imagery, rather than always selling ourselves modern ideas which change our conception?

I think we ought to teach children about heaven more. I think at this time it is a shortcoming in Christian education and preaching and teaching.       I think it might be an overreaction to the old days.

In the old days, it was always heaven. About two generations ago, maybe less. I think, from reading (I wasn't around much). But when I was a child, also, there was a lot of preaching about heaven, heaven, heaven. Then came reaction, as always in Christianity, always the pendulum swing reaction: "Okay, let's talk less about heaven and let's talk more about the here and now." We are so into 'now', that we are digging our own graves almost, you know. And nobody is looking up. That's what coming. And I think you lose perspective.

Yes, I think that of every clearly revealed doctrine, even though we might not at a given moment, "see the value of it." That's not our business. It is our business to believe and proclaim every clearly revealed doctrine. And I think heaven is a big one. I mean, death is the most real thing to everybody. Even to the communists these days.

And what comes after death is most important in my mind. I preach unashamedly about heaven and I know it makes even some Christians a little nervous It's funny thing, I don't know, I think it's the influence of secularism around them. That they feel embarrassed. I think it's the influence of secularism that makes you feel: "Let's not over-stress it. We believe it, but let's not talk about it because they are going to make fun of us" I'm speculating.

Personally, as I say, heaven to me is as real as seeing the Lord. I expect to see him.

I've wanted to write a book on heaven, and I've got several messages from which I hope we can do it, because I think it ought to be one of the greatest ways of winning souls to Jesus Christ -- talking about heaven. Because any day you and I could be gone. Across the street, bang, and you're in heaven.

 

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A strange ending

Extremely cordial in person, our interaction came to a strange, even unforgettable, conclusion a few days later.  After transcribing the above, I sent a courtesy copy to Dr. Palau.  I didn't hear from him, as I expected, but received a registered letter from his law firm admonishing me in the strongest terms to cease, desist, and not publish the interview.  They threatened a law suit.  What triggered the overkill?   Was it the comment regarding the "endless country club," (could be edited out, of course); was it that he was actually going to publish his own book on the subject?  If so, I never located it, and why not just say so?  (I have written other books, on other topics, and attempted to include others' comments who demurred when I ask for permission to quote them, because they were about the business of publishing their own words.)  So, in sum, why the rebuff following our friendly hour spent conversing about the afterlife?  I never found out. I came from a public relations, not a 60 Minutes background, so I wasn’t going to run to the fight, so to speak.  Just the opposite.   I was stunned into inaction for a good while, and the impetus to include his comments dissipated, and so I did not pursue it.  Thankfully, my impetus to write and publish After Armageddon remained however.  It was the first of some 34 titles that would eventually find their way to Amazon and sarkett.com.